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Up Topic General / Letters and Opinions / Something to ponder on 9/11
- - By oitsubob [us] Date 2018-09-11 8:24 AM
Yes on this date in 2001 a tragic event occurred. However, would it be viewed any differently if it would have happened in Oklahoma Cityor someplace not on the coasts? You rarely hear talk about the OKC terrorist bombing in 1995 anymore but you do regularly of 9/11. Is it because of the number of people killed or is it due to it happening in NYC? This was asked in one of my graduate classes for history. The majority (all 20 somethings) viewed that it would have been viewed no differently, however the two of us over 40 and vets believe that the focus would have waned had it not been for it happening in NYC.

Just wanting a larger group viewpoint. Not wanting to start an argument.
Parent - By Photocat [us] Date 2018-09-11 8:33 AM
I still hear about OKC. OKC was tragic. I remember watching it on tv dumbstruck. But it was a singular event.

I think the sheer size and scope of the event is what makes it so special. To me it seems similar to Pearl Harbor. The shock of it and the number of casualties. I think the overall goals and targets also make it more personal to Americans.

There is before 9/11 and after 9/11. 9/11 was just more in every way. It made me fear for my own life, (short-lived but definitely thinking we might be at war here at home.) what was next? Fear for my country. And it led us into war.
Parent - By Beastie Girl [us] Date 2018-09-11 8:42 AM Edited 2018-09-11 8:53 AM
It didn't just happen in NYC. It happened in DC and PA too. Agree with PC that the size and scope is what made it so impactful.

I visited the OKC Memorial a few months ago. I haven't and will never forget.
Parent - - By donnasaur [us] Date 2018-09-11 8:43 AM
there is also the fact that it was an act of terrorism by terrorists from another country.
OKC was an act of terrorism as well, but a US terrorist. I am not an expert in this area, but it seems to me that we treat terrorist acts by white American men very differently from terrorists acts by individuals/organizations outside the US.

if foreign terrorists had done something similar in OKC or another non-coastal city I think we would still hear about it.
Parent - - By brneydrnnr (barney cougar) [us] Date 2018-09-11 9:13 AM
and I think we hear about it more because we are so close to OKC - there are usually remembrances for that bombing here locally on the anniversary. :sad:
Parent - - By neustkg (Important) Date 2018-09-11 4:22 PM
Plus the OKC bombing happened on the same day as Waco (explosions) and Ruby Ridge.  If I remember correctly, Columbine shootings happened on this day as well.
Parent - - By oitsubob [us] Date 2018-09-11 4:41 PM
Waco yes, the other no. Ruby Rdge was in August, Columbine was April 20 and was never connected in any way to Waco or OKC. They just wanted to be more "famous" than McVeigh.
Parent - By neustkg (Important) Date 2018-09-12 7:50 AM
That's right about Ruby Ridge.  But a lot of things were happening around April 20 for a while.  I worked for Conoco in Oklahoma in the 90s during the Federal Building Bombing and every year after our company issued warnings to each department be extra careful during this date.

Yes, Columbine was not connected to Waco or OKC in ideology, but they picked the similar date as you said to try to be more famous.
Parent - By blazer85 [us] Date 2018-09-11 9:46 AM
yep.
Parent - By neustkg (Important) Date 2018-09-11 4:20 PM
This.
Parent - By JimGo1 Date 2018-09-11 5:22 PM
I'm not an expert either and not disagreeing this was a factor but if the Klu Klux Clan managed to pull off what happened on 9/11, I think we would be talking about it for a long time.   I agree it is part but not the primary reason.
Parent - - By blazer85 [us] Date 2018-09-11 9:45 AM
I agree with what donna said.  The fact OKC was a horrific act by an American white male, seemed to have the effect of making it less of a "terrorist" act to many people.  For example, if the Vegas shooter was not a white male, the reaction would have been more than "thoughts & prayers" and it would have been viewed as a terrorist act.
Parent - - By Quagmire [us] Date 2018-09-12 2:04 PM
Oklahoma City has always been viewed as a terrorist act because it was politically motivated.  It is universally considered so.  Excluding extreme fringes of society, which group of "many people" (your words), exactly, do not think that was terrorism?  Can you name even one person who claims it wasn't?  Can you post one main stream (or otherwise) story making the point that it wasn't terrorism? 

Las Vegas, on the other hand, was NOT a terrorist act because...are you ready for this...it was not done for any identifiable political reason or to advance any identifiable or communicated political agenda.  Terrorism by definition requires a political aim.  The Las Vegas shooter simply didn't have one that anyone could find.  Not everything terrible is terrorism.  Not everything that inspires terror is terrorism.  Not every mass murder is terrorism.  The defining factor is not skin color it is political motivation.
Parent - - By blazer85 [us] Date 2018-09-12 2:48 PM
I can not site anything from the web which will check you box, but a couple  of years ago, when at a party around the anniversary, it came up.  At least three people were blabbering about how it REALLY wasn't terrorism, because a "white guy did it".  There are plenty of ignorant people running around the country with this same attitude.  If you are not acquainted with any, then count yourself lucky.

Dylan Roof was not charged as a terrorist, nor was he widely regarded as one in the media.  He had an identifiable political reason and communicated his political agenda (to kill black people). And those nice police officers bought him a burger when they arrested him.
Parent - By oitsubob [us] Date 2018-09-12 4:31 PM
So you are okay with them not feeding him when it has been shown he had not eaten for 2 days? So they got him a fucking $2 hamburger from Burger King. Big fucking deal.
Parent - - By oitsubob [us] Date 2018-09-13 5:33 AM
Sorry for being confrontational, it was a long day. However, I stand by my main point about the hamburger.
Parent - - By brneydrnnr (barney cougar) [us] Date 2018-09-13 9:26 AM
I think the sticky thing about the hamburger is, if the situation had been reversed, and a black kid had shot up a white church, he wouldn't be getting a hamburger, he'd be getting a coffin :sad:
Parent - By sideshowbob Date 2018-09-13 10:35 AM
Right on
Parent - - By oitsubob [us] Date 2018-09-13 11:15 AM
An awful lot of assuming in that statement.
Parent - - By brneydrnnr (barney cougar) [us] Date 2018-09-13 11:27 AM
I agree - but it's not that far fetched
Parent - - By oitsubob [us] Date 2018-09-13 11:34 AM
I would disagree that it is "not that far fetched."
Parent - - By brneydrnnr (barney cougar) [us] Date 2018-09-13 12:05 PM
well, at least a mob of angry black folk didn't storm the jail, pull him out and string him from a pole in the town square while law enforcement looked on I guess. Things are way better now.
Parent - By oitsubob [us] Date 2018-09-13 12:14 PM
:roll::roll::roll:
Parent - By Quagmire [us] Date 2018-09-14 7:44 AM
At least three people were blabbering about how it REALLY wasn't terrorism

Oh...well in light of the overwhelming incontrovertible anecdotal evidence you just provided I withdraw my comment and hang my head in shame.  I just didn't know that such irrefutable proof that "many people" do not view OKC as terrorism was so close at hand.  Please forgive my skepticism.
Parent - - By tizzy319 (gaping five hole) [us] Date 2018-09-11 10:06 AM
I think it would be lasting no matter what, but the World Trade Center buildings were part of an iconic skyline.  Would we remember it similarly if it was the Seattle space needle or the Sears Tower in Chicago or the Arch in St. Louis?  I think so.  However, if it was the federal building in OKC (or some relatively unknown landmark outside of those who live in that city), it would still be memorialized, but not to the level it currently is. 

It's an interesting question to ponder and it makes one wonder.
Parent - - By adamswims (Gone Now Adam! You pick what you want.) Date 2018-09-11 10:31 AM
I think there is also a component of how it was consumed. We were all able to watch it unfold after the 1st plane hit and nationwide news covered it live. There is a shared experience factor to it among people.
Parent - By tizzy319 (gaping five hole) [us] Date 2018-09-11 10:33 AM
Very true.  That wouldn't have happened in most cities.  It would have taken an hour or two for most stations to have journalists on air with live footage in most other cities.
Parent - By JimGo1 Date 2018-09-11 5:23 PM
Good point - we all watched it happened.   I was sitting in an EDS office doing some systems work and we were all trying to comprehend what happened while watching it unfold.
Parent - By noel (Kilotons of Honky Tonk Badonkadonk) Date 2018-09-12 5:47 AM Edited 2018-09-12 5:53 AM
exactly. It occurred over an entire day, in 3 locations.  there are images of people jumping and falling out of buildings. We were in our teacher workroom watching the towers burn, then hearing the next event, plane hitting pentagon....that was all awful enough. Then the collapse of the buildings and all the video coverage of that and the aftermath. You actually watched it happen. Very little video of the first plane hitting, if any that I'm aware of...but then when it did, people started filming and we saw it all unfold in real time. I also feel that the 24 hour cable news began with 9/11 as it started with non stop coverage, and you could not stop watching this playing out. Even with the Pentagon and flight 93, we only saw the aftermath. in NYC you saw every minute.

I remember being horrified about OKC, another one for me was Columbine, watching that play out. In both cases we only saw the awful aftermath. We watched 9/11 actually happen in real time.
Parent - - By Mookiethedog Date 2018-09-11 11:08 AM
Definitely because NYC (PA and Pentagon) is(are) larger and more well known but I agree with others that a white home grown scum bag terrorist won't polarize a nation like an attack from outside by people with extremist ideologies. 

(I think a life is a life regardless of race/colour/religion/nationality etc etc etc and when people kill it's hard to rank one event more tragic than another....and I know you weren't suggesting we rank anything)

Peace and love to all the 9/11 affected people then and now :hug:
Parent - - By Quagmire [us] Date 2018-09-12 1:20 PM
Polarize?  Is that the word you really wanted there?

If so, why?
Parent - By Mookiethedog Date 2018-09-12 3:22 PM
Must have been too early in the morning.  Usually I come across as highly intelligent!:hug:
Parent - - By gadget girl Date 2018-09-11 12:05 PM
I disagree somewhat with the premise of the question -- that the OKC bombing is somehow forgotten.  I remember where I was when it happened, much like I do about 9/11.  Not to mention that I think that if you took a random poll of Americans, I am willing to bet that more people would know who Timothy McVeigh is (may he rot in hell) than perhaps Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Mohammed Atta, and the other 9/11 terrorists (may they rot in hell).    There is still yearly coverage of the OKC bombing on local t.v. 

To the extent that 9/11 is a "bigger event" in people's minds, I agree with PhotoCat and others who point out that it was a foreign attack on US soil like Pearl Harbor (which is still in the national consciousness) and entered us in a long standing war.   It was also a culmination of a series of terrorist events (WTC I, USS Cole, US Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania) from a well organized, well funded and global hateful ideology which is still in business today unfortunately.   Do people remember those terrorist events today?  Probably less than OKC.
Parent - By PoopedColt Date 2018-09-12 5:13 AM
Yep. I agree with a lot of this. I did chuckle that you have more confidence in the average American to know who Timothy McVeigh is, but I'm sure you'd find at least a few who could identify him. The 9/11 terrorists I doubt many would know. I didn't remember for sure.
Parent - By SRoo Date 2018-09-12 5:15 AM
Agree with everything you wrote.
Parent - By sideshowbob Date 2018-09-11 12:38 PM
I basically agree with Donna —foreign vs. domestic
Parent - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2018-09-11 5:28 PM
Like others have said, I don't think it's geography. 9/11 was different in kind (foreign) and scope (massive), and attacked American icons as well as people. Plus, the "out of the blue" surprise factor, using our own commercial transportation. Truck bombs weren't new in 1995...in fact, old news. Domestic airplanes as super bombs destroying icons and thousands of people was/is terrifying beyond words. I was horrified by OKC, but was horrified x 100 by 9/11 and it didn't have anything to do with NYC.
Parent - - By oitsubob [us] Date 2018-09-11 6:22 PM
One thing that many have mentioned is that they were scared and/or that it changed the world, maybe it is due to being prior military, but I did not feel scared or think it changed the world. It brought to the US something that much of the rest of the world had been experiencing for some time, terrorist attacks. Yes, the size and manitude of this was beyond any other attack that the world had seen before but beyond that I don't think it changed the world.
Parent - - By sideshowbob Date 2018-09-11 8:24 PM
Perhaps part of the difference in  attention paid to the two events is that we Americans are reluctant to acknowledge that the OK attack was carried out by " one of us " and not some foreign culture or religious extremist group . We don't want to accept that reality .
Parent - By Quagmire [us] Date 2018-09-12 2:08 PM Edited 2018-09-12 2:23 PM
Who exactly are you talking about when you say "we" and "us?" 

I get the sense that what you really mean is "they" and "them." 

Unless you are saying that you are reluctant to acknowledge the act was carried out by one of us.

Or you are saying that you don't want to accept that reality.

is that what you are saying?

At any rate...don't include me in your we and us talk.  I know exactly who perpetrated OKC and I have no problem acknowledging it.
Parent - - By gadget girl Date 2018-09-12 9:54 AM
this is a good point-- it definitely brought "home" what other places have suffered for years and years.
Parent - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2018-09-13 10:20 PM
This is true.
Parent - By foggydoggy [us] Date 2018-09-12 12:54 PM
multiple attacks and higher causualty rate and the destruction of two US Icons and it was an 'outside' attack that led to a war.  I think its more that than where it occurred.  Had the terrorist blown up a skyscraper in Chicago, or Minneappolis or Denver I think the reaction would have been similar though the targets chosen were chosen because they were icons.  I think it also the fact that it was international rather than domestic terrorism and magnitudes worse the OKC (as if tht wasn't bad enough)
Parent - - By Quagmire [us] Date 2018-09-12 1:13 PM
I get the sense some folks are out looking for reasons to be outraged about the amount of press that OKC gets vs. 9/11.

To get a better idea of the difference in magnitude/scale between OKC and 9/11...imagine, if you can, if there had been 17...yes...17 Oklahoma City bombings all on the same day. 

Get it now?
Parent - - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2018-09-13 10:24 PM
I don't think peeps including myself are minimizing OKC.
Parent - - By Quagmire [us] Date 2018-09-14 7:37 AM
I didn't say, imply or even remotely hint that they were.   Not sure where your comment came from.  It appears to be a complete non-sequitur.
Parent - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2018-09-14 3:53 PM Edited 2018-09-14 3:59 PM
You are correct on all counts. I mis-read your comment and my reply was clumsy, sorry. :blush:

In fact, I generally agree with with your comment, as evidenced by my reply to oitsubob's original post as you'll see above. (eta above instead of below)

To be responsive and accurate to your comment, I should have said I don't think peeps including myself are looking for reasons to be outraged by the lack of coverage given to OKC compared to 9/11. I think everyone understands the magnitude of each, both horrific, but with 9/11 being even beyond 17x the horror and terror of OKC.
Parent - By noquitter [us] Date 2018-09-13 5:55 AM
It was the magnitude. It happened in the air to those who took their last flight, at both towers of the World Trade Center, Washington DC (the Pentagon) and in a field in Pennsylvania. It didn't just happen in NYC. 

I was in Texas at a police trade show when the OKC bombing happened. It definitely had an impact at the time. It happened before 911 so I think the shear size and scope of that attack eclipsed it. 

I will never forget 9/11 and the way we lived at that time. I had to fly one week later. It was a very emotional experience and the security was painfully tedious but I didn't care.   When that plane touched down, the person on the loud speaker was singing God Bless America, praying and got choked up profusely thanking the passengers for flying with them.  Several of us were crying at that point.

The one positive of 9/11 is that people stopped haranguing each other for quite awhile after that. Watching the video footage for hurricane Harvey is a good example of how people treated each other.  While I don't wish for 9/11 or another Harvey, I definitely wish people valued each other enough to stop the B.S.:hug:

I crawl back in my cave now.:laugh:
- By JimGo1 Date 2018-09-11 5:18 PM
Yes on this date in 2001 a tragic event occurred. However, would it be viewed any differently if it would have happened in Oklahoma City or someplace not on the coasts?
   I would say if an attack of similar size and scope happened in a comparable sized city anywhere else in the US the view of it would be about the same. 

You rarely hear talk about the OKC terrorist bombing in 1995 anymore but you do regularly of 9/11. Is it because of the number of people killed or is it due to it happening in NYC?
    The size and scope of the terrorist attack was greater in NYC and that is not to minimize what happened in Oklahoma city which was truly awful.  I think in many ways 9/11 has changed us all in so many ways and we are still fighting the war on terrorism which
    might account for some of the added discussion and coverage of 9/11.   While the attack in Oklahoma city was horrible and brutal, I'm not sure it really altered our existence and changed life in America like 9/11 has.
- By Tim [us] Date 2018-09-11 7:47 PM
I agree with the “size and scope” and “domestic white males gets treated differently” notes above.
And...part of why Americans remember 9/11 so vividly, and why it gets so much news coverage, is that so many people felt a connection to New York and the twin towers. Not as many people have visited OKC, when compared with NYC. People across the country had visited the twin towers or lower Manhattan and felt a personal connection to the place.

And then taking things to a very micro/personal level, 11/25 (date my wife died) is, unfortunately, a far more vivid date in my memory than 9/11. Yes, there is only one death I’m aware of from that day, compared with nearly 3,000 on 9/11. But that one death impacts my life on a far deeper and more frequent level than the nearly 3,000 from 9/11.
- - By Tommeke Date 2018-09-12 4:57 PM
From an international perspective, OKC bombing was covered here as part of the regular "mass USA shooting" narrative.
For what I can remember.

9/11 was an whole other level. Historically speaking I'd put that on the same level of meaning as the Berlin Wall (can't compare a tragedy to what was basically a liberation, but there is definitely a before and an after with historic events like these).
It pretty much shaped international politics for years and still does now.
A couple of wars were started over it. Big parts of the middle East are still unstable because of the aftermath of these wars.
Parent - - By Quagmire [us] Date 2018-09-14 7:39 AM
Yeah...the middle east was very very stable before those wars.
Parent - - By Tommeke Date 2018-09-14 7:47 AM
Thank you Rambo III :hug:
Parent - - By Quagmire [us] Date 2018-09-14 7:48 AM
Rambo was a pussy.  I go by Quagmire I :mutmad:
Parent - By Tommeke Date 2018-09-14 9:38 AM
I meant, thanks Rambo III for stabilizing Afghanistan in the 80s :wink:
Not, you being Rambo 3.
- By oitsubob [us] Date 2018-09-15 4:02 PM
Let's add another attack to the mix that I am surprised no one has mentioned, the Boston Marathon bombing. Is it important due to it happening in Boston? Not many people died but it was perpetrated by 2 Muslim immigrants.
Up Topic General / Letters and Opinions / Something to ponder on 9/11

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