It still baffles the F out of me why each one committed suicide. Chris Cornell and Chester Beninngton - my favorite artists in the past few years. I strongly believe that suicide is a way out for cowards.....but Ive never been there and wont know that.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_v1SLIt01Q&list=RDF_v1SLIt01Q
2017-10-13 6:57 PM
>I strongly believe that suicide is a way out for cowards.
I am of the opinion that is an awful belief.
And I think you may be correct.
2017-10-18 6:19 PM
I agree, and support the right of an individual to make his/her own choices about his/her life and death, and timing thereof.
I used to think that too but suicide is a health issue not a cowardly act
A way out for someone in a deep awful pain, a pain so deep that one can not think how devastating their absence will deeply hurt people around them - ones they know, and even those they don't.
but GRG....its mental pain that these guys had, not physical. Something that they could have sought treatment for....especially given what they could afford. Am I making any sense?
You make sense unless you have ever been in a mental hole that deep. Sometimes the treatment is not enough. Sometimes there isn't enough energy for the treatment.
2017-10-17 12:23 PM
How do you know they didn't have treatment? Treatment isn't always effective, whether for physical or mental afflictions.
2017-10-19 1:22 AM
Treatments do not work for everyone and even when they do, they take time and in the meantime people feel more horrible than you ever imagine if you haven't been there. I've dealt with depression and have some idea, but you can never know what other people are going through.
Back to lurking, this is just something that is close to my heart so I had to respond.
Unless you have been through or around someone with a mental health issue you cannot understand, so don't judge and call them cowards. Mental health sucks and it is very difficult to find the help that is needed.
2017-10-13 8:52 PM
I think it must feel like the only way out from nonstop unbearable pain and misery and the feeling that you are just a burden to your family and friends. And that they would be better off without you. The brain is so powerful it can convince you of all these lies. It's not rational. At least that's what a good friend once told me. I wish I had known how dangerous her thoughts were.
2017-10-17 9:46 AM
As some of you already know, I lost my wife to suicide nearly 2 years ago. She had dealt with some form of mental illness, most likely bipolar disorder, for at least 6 years leading up to that (probably longer). She was an extroverted personality and shared with me a lot of what her thoughts had been at her darkest moments. (I knew she was super-high risk for self-harm, but even with me and her parents and various others being hyper-vigilant, it still wasn’t enough to prevent what happened.) What LLRuns wrote above could almost be taken verbatim from things she described.
It baffles me how Linkin Park is considered such a big band.
They have 4 good songs, that's it. Numb, Crawling, In The End, one step closer. All clean cut 3 minutes radio edits. Good running music though.
I remember going to a Metallica concert a couple of years ago and Soundgarden was opening. This was a big festival ground and Metallica had a big "golden circle". I really wanted to check out Soundgarden from up close (bought their cd's when they came out in the 90s, 'superunknown' being one of those albums where every song is just good, remembering watching 'outshined' on HeadBanger's Ball). Of course those golden circle pricks didn't give a crap about it, so I was just looking at the concert from at least 50 yards distance with an open field in front of me (the golden circle
). I thought what a shitty treatment for such an iconic band, they deserve their own venue, but I guess they need to make money too.
Regarding their mental health, I think it already takes a lot to be an artist. You need to dig deep in your emotions, have a very unstable and demanding life, substance abuse everywhere. I saw the Lady Gaga documentary lately, and had the same feeling as with the Amy Whinehouse and Michael Jackson ones (and even Nirvana). It is just so incredibly taxing and demanding, this entourage of yes-men that always pushes you to perform and leech of you at the same time.
Given how chemicals can alter your mind and mood and the delicate balance of hormones and serotonine-dopamine in the brain I'm sure there are people who have pre-dispositions to mental health issues.
I never liked Linkin Park either. It's just pop angst rock big whoop. However super sad he died.
hey My December was good too....infact the whole hybrid theory album was pure gold including that DJ guy that they brought in for one track!
Having thought more about what you said since my post last night, give the following some thought.
Read some of the accounts of those military people who win the Medal of Honor or any other highly distinguished medal for bravery and you will see a common thread throughout. Most will either say themselves or be described as being cowards, and they only did what they did to protect those they care about from harm/danger.
Many that suffer from severe mental health issues view that their committing suicide is a very brave action to protect those that they love and care about from prolonged pain and suffering.
You probably know people that are suffering from mental health issues but many don't know who to talk to or cannot find help and therefore suffer in silence. IMO you need to lose the "they took the cowardly way out" attitude and actually learn something about the issues. Once you do, you will understand and realize that you do know people that are suffering.
(100 Mile Stud)
2017-10-18 6:05 AM
Fame is not something I'd list as a positive. I think it makes people feel even more isolated.
2017-10-17 10:27 AM
It's a way out for cowards DEPENDING on the reason for the suicide. If it's suicide as a result of depression or even a terminal diagnosis then it's not. If it's that they can't see through their way of a problem not related to depression (for example high debt, bad marriage etc) then, that is a cowards way out.
You should count yourself fortunate to be able to believe something so stupid, but you should learn not to say it.
SO if a person has committed a crime (killed someone or fleeced a bunch of people, whatever crime that will land them in prison) and they get caught and rather than face the consequences of their actions they choose to commit suicide, you are saying that person isn't a coward? I'm sorry I believe THAT person is a coward. Those people who suffer depression and commit suicide are NOT cowards. I am making a distinction. Not all people who chose to commit suicide are facing depression or other psychological factors.
(I like wool!)
2017-10-17 8:24 PM
I agree with you totally given this explanation. The Las Vegas shooter was a coward by killing himself. As were others who were caught or about to be caught doing or having done something heinous. I'm not sure you're old enough to remember the Budd Dwyer suicide at the press conference in Harrisburg when he blew his brains out in front of the public, press and cameras rather than face his wrongdoing. That not only was cowardly, it was aggressively hurtful towards his family, friends and the Pennsylvania public. You make a really good point in distinguishing between those types of suicides which are cowardly or worse while trying to escape their heinous acts or the law and/or wanting to hurt others, versus those who are not cowards but rather escaping their own pain or the demons outside the gate. That's a huge difference, and I'm glad you pointed it out. I have total sympathy for victims but lesser sympathy for cowards escaping their own evil deeds.
In s&f's defense, your original post wasn't as clear as this one. Most suicide victims aren't cowards and your original post made it sound like they might be which of course is stupid like s&f said. I can't speak for him, but suspect he'd agree that the Las Vegas or Budd Dwyer suicides among others were cowardly. I'll let him speak to that.
I didn't grow up here in PA so Dwyer's story doesn't ring any bells. Yes, that Vegas shooter is a massive coward in my book. I thought my explanation was ok, but apparently not when I got the response I did. This is why I gave back a more detailed explanation. However I also got the idea that S&F thinks there is no distinction. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong nor does it make me stupid since I don't agree with him.
(I like wool!)
2017-10-18 4:30 PM
Oh right, I forgot you didn't grow up here. Obviously it was massive news across the state because he did it at a news conference with the cameras rolling, and the news stations all ran the footage. I looked it up and it was 1987.
I'll let s&f speak for himself, but I will point out that he didn't call you stupid. He said that distinguishing some suicides as cowardly was stupid, and suggested you learn not to say that.
The reason I didn't think your original explanation was clear was that you used examples on the margin, high debt and bad marriage. Those arguably could go either way in my book depending on the circumstances. Those peeps may or may not be cowards. In your second explanation, killers and fleecers made your point better, and again, I 100% agree with that point. The Vegas killer and Budd Dwyer are real-life examples of those two categories. In my opinion, Budd Dwyer was a bigger coward than Paddock, because he not only killed himself to escape the consequences of his actions but purposefully used the suicide itself to hurt millions of people including those close to him. One final giant calculated shot at millions of defenseless victims as Dwyer himself was escaping. That's as cowardly as it gets. Paddock apparently escaped via suicide only as a plan B or C, since reportedly he had actual worldly escape plans until he knew he was discovered and cornered. Regardless, I believe strongly that both of those individuals were cowards, as are others of their ilk. I can understand a point of view that no suicide is cowardly because of the complexities of human thought and emotions but simply disagree with that viewpoint because of examples like Dwyer and Paddock.
Thank you for bringing up the point, because I never really thought about it before you brought it up.
"The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling."
this is a great analogy.
(Gone Now Adam! You pick what you want.)
2017-10-17 1:47 PM
(I like wool!)
2017-10-17 8:55 PM
I'm sure that's all true and it's a good analogy. I've felt the flames like I'm sure every one of us has. Luckily, I've never felt compelled to jump. Maybe like N70 said below, I just haven't had the courage to jump. Or maybe I've had the courage and strength not to jump, to hang on instead. Dunno, but I do want to live and always have because life is really worth living. That's probably why we're all here commenting in this thread.
I will mention something which maybe is quirky to me or maybe not.
I've been on top of a lot of rocky cliffs in my life and almost every time visualize myself jumping over the edge flying to my death. I also have a fear of sharp objects and often when handling knives, lawnmower blades etc visualize myself cutting off a limb or worse. I sometimes shudder at these little episodes and sometimes smile or laugh. Always I know that I never would do it intentionally but sometimes wonder whether I would. That's been happening since I was a teenager and I'm comfortable enough in my own skin and love of life to know that I will never off myself, but I do wonder whether others have those little moments. And wonder if some suicides result from a momentary urge, with or without the flames.
2017-10-14 8:05 AM
From someone who thinks about it frequently, I can tell you that you have it entirely backwards. It takes immense courage to end one's life. Especially if you believe in an afterlife. Personally, it's impossible to discount dumb luck and have never attempted suicide myself, but I still think about it frequently. It's certainly no easy way out of anything.
(I like wool!)
2017-10-17 9:08 PM
I've thought about this before you mentioned it. And mentioned it above in my reply to s&f. Yeah, none of our choices are easy. Probably the easiest is to keep on keepin' on because of momentum plus a whole lot more, and that's not a bad choice.
I wonder how you feel about assisted death , that is , those folks who are terminally ill and ask a doctor or other caregiver to help
them pass ?
2017-10-17 12:31 PM
Obviously you shouldn't make people suffer longer than necessary. Belgium has a pretty far reaching legislation for euthanasia.
Because even this is not something that clear-cut.
There are some cases where pretty much everyone agree that it should be possible: people with no brain activity, late stage cancer (or other terminal diseases), ...
But there are also cases of older people (or even younger ones) who have nothing to live for, are in great pain themselves and just want it to end (people with cluster migraine, older people who are fully conscious and functional but without quality of life, for example heavy pain). The law here actually allows assisted death (of course after serious deliberation by many doctors and family) of these people as well.
So, it's really not that easy, where do you draw the line?
Technically we helped our young son commit suicide. He was riddled with cancer and he could have been allowed to die in pain and basically drowning in his own lung fluid buildup, or we could have gave him enough morphine to put him out and slow his body down to the point where he died. He could not have done this himself we as his parents made that decision and I am so ever grateful he was able to pass painlessly and peacefully to God.
2017-10-20 8:39 AM
By The Beard
(is wearing Arm Panties)
2017-10-20 8:40 AM
2017-10-20 10:34 AM
I can't even start imagining how tough that must have been. All my sympathy!
You have my sympathy and my respect . God bless you and your son.
(I like wool!)
2017-10-20 5:52 PM
NSF, just wanted to point out what a great mom you are and also say how much I respect you for having the courage to talk about this stuff.
Thanks. I honor Evan by talking about him and our experience. And now that I have this big tattoo on my left arm with his name and stuff I put it out to the world to talk about him.
Thanks guys.....I need to change my way of thinking...you brought up some good points. Without a good discussion there is no learning and people (like me) remain ignorant in their beliefs.
Heyyy wait a minute was this thread a gotcha strawman?
its not a bait and switch if that's what you are implying, but yes my perspective has broadened thanks to everyone's inputs.
(Gone Now Adam! You pick what you want.)
2017-10-17 8:16 AM
who hacked mut's account?
(I like wool!)
2017-10-17 9:11 PM
No this was a good topic and good discussion, and I could see and feel mut absorbing it along the way.
Years ago, when we were first married and I was in grad school, we had some neighbors -- bit older , nice couple with 4/5 kids as I recall . They were struggling financially; dad worked 2 jobs full time. After a while, the wife's dad , a widower , moved in . He had just emigrated from central Europe , had no friends and couldn't speak English. He was soon diagnosed with TB , got treated in an institution and temporarily cured, then released.
After a short while , the TB came back, and rather that go back to the hospital, he hung himself in their basement. The daughter said that the man was very depressed and considered himself a burden . She actually found the body, came to get me and we called the police . One cop came and insisted that I go watch while he lowered the body ; I had nightmares for many months.
Until that experience, I thought that suicide was cowardly and also selfish and perhaps a sign of mental illness. Since then, I realize that it can also be a rational act.
2017-10-17 2:28 PM
OMG - why would the cop insist on you go watch them lower the body?
I don't know. At the time, I was sort of in shock and just did as he wanted. Perhaps he just needed a witness if ever necessary.
(I like wool!)
2017-10-17 9:17 PM
sideshow, I can understand his suicide being a rational act. Do you think the method was? (I really don't know the answer but am interested in your thoughts)
I would say the method , i.e. hanging, was rational, yes. But I don't think he ever thought deeply about the impact on his daughter and family , so I'd say very selfish on his part. I suppose he could have chosen another method and site for his demise. But what I'm trying to say is that I can understand why his sense of isolation, hopelessness and depression led him to that conclusion.
To die—to sleep,
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to: 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd.
(I like wool!)
2017-10-18 6:18 PM
You're probably right that he didn't think deeply about the impact on his daughter and family. If he didn't, then the self-hanging probably was rational but if he hung himself knowing the impact, then and only then might I consider the method kind of selfish.
I have a good friend since high school (a runner, not that it matters) who discovered his teenaged daughter having hung herself in her closet. It's hard to imagine the impact but I had a glimpse of it through him. That must be the absolute worst impact for all kinds of reasons.
Way back in college, some of us had discussions about how we would commit suicide if we were so inclined. (As far as I know, none of us ever did.) My choices were either jumping or driving a car off a high cliff to get a last thrill, or to drink from a poisoned keg of beer for a relaxed enjoyable last few hours. I suppose either of those things would have less impact on loved ones than hanging or cutting or something similar, but I wasn't thinking about others with my methods but rather myself. My friends similarly thought only of themselves with their choices. I guess we all were selfish, although it was just pretend and not real life and death.
This brings back bad memories. I used to run with the local Hash House Harriers, and got to know a guy in the neighborhood who also ran with the Hash. We got to know one another well, as we were among the few Spanish speakers in the group. We'd also see each other running in the neighborhood. I got to know his wife and his son.
Three days after I saw him on an evening run, I got a call from his wife. She came home from work and found his lifeless body hanging from a tree in their backyard. Luís was a proud man. I knew he was having problems with his job. His wife said he hadn't been working, was unable to find another job, felt he was letting his family down, and ended it all. Nearly twenty years later, I still find it very disturbing.
2017-10-18 10:14 AM
2017-10-18 10:17 AM
I delayed writing this, because it still is painful, but I think it may give a different perspective . Here goes :
My slightly older brother "Bill" ,, 13 months older than I (Irish twins ) developed early onset Parkinson's at age 45. At that time, he was married with 2 kids and had a successful career as an engineer. His last position was head of R&D for a small plastics company. The company decided to move to Japan and Bill was offered the opportunity to move to the new location. For family reasons , he declined the offer and was terminated.
Soon after that , the Parkinson's showed up and he was never again able to get a "decent " job . Over the years, his conditioned worsened and he knew the inevitable outcome . At age 60, he had an operation called a pallidotomy which cured all the symptoms , a miracle it would seem . I recall only 3 days after the procedure he and I went for a 3 mile walk . However, about a month later , the tremors returned . Do you recall the movie Awakenings ? . Well, that is what happened to Bill.
Bill then slowly declined and at the end was in a Catholic hospice, frozen in a fetal position and on a ventilator. DW and I spent many hours with him, but he was not conscious of our presence. After about 2 weeks in this catatonic state, a kindly older nun took my hand and whispered that sometimes you have to tell them it's okay to let go . Well , I did and within a few hours he passed , at age 67.
Why am I posting this ? Well, for some time watching Bill's condition, I thought about suicide and what I would do in his shoes . Bill never voiced anything of that sort , but I certainly would not have criticized his decision. To this day, I still wonder how he kept going knowing the future.
If you were Bill, what might you have done ?
Death. Not even a second thought. It's in my medical directives, and I firmly believe in the right of an individual to choose when to end his/her own life in any event, but especially so with such suffering and limited quality of life. Yes, different people have different views on where the line is as to quality of life/pain/etc. but with Bill's example, I'd make the decision to die.
2017-10-18 11:26 AM
I know there are different directives possible in the US. You could have a "Do Not resuscitate" form which means if they have any means to get you back ( CPR, defibrillation, ...) they won't.
However, what you describe is specifically something the Euthanasia law allows in Belgium.
To describe a specific case, my mom's friend had a mom with a brain tumor. They removed it surgically but knew it would grow back.
So they did the chemo/radiation stuff until it no longer took. The tumor grew back and she started having intermittent seizures.
Since it would just go downhill from then on until the end, and the fear of not knowing when she would get seizures again, she decided to have euthanasia on a set date so she could say goodbye to her family and loved ones around her.
But it has to be approved by several doctors and the patient must be fully aware when making the decision and demand, and a hospital/doctor can refuse to perform it.
So, in your brother's case he certainly would have had the option to go more peacefully.
Bob, check your messages.
(I like wool!)
2017-10-18 6:20 PM
In answer to your question, I don't know.
Bob raised a number of issues. His story is similar to what happened to a family member. It's one thing to talk about suicide in the abstract, and quite another when someone close to you is confronted with this sort of situation. Many questions, many shades of gray, and not many answers.
2017-10-18 10:53 AM
All I know is that if one more asshole calls it selfish, then I know this isn't the forum for me anymore. It's not like I post a lot anyway, but JFC people, think before you type.
I don't think people who have never been that low can actually imagine what it's like.
2017-10-18 12:23 PM
I heard an interview recently that offered an interesting theory of why humans are even capable of suicide. Basically, it's perceived by the person doing so, that it is for the greater good of the group. obviously it's more complex than that, considering honor or martardom or metal abuse. But it being a selfless act is what made it possible.
I don't know how much credit I give it but I found it interesting. The notion of overcoming personal survival instinct fastinates me.
2017-10-18 5:29 PM
2017-10-18 5:37 PM
I don't claim to be a know it all, we all need some education sometimes and I think this discussion was worth it. Just like its not fair for me to judge them, I ask you to not judge me.
ETA...I never called it selfish, and Im probably the most seflfish ahole you will ever come across.
(I like wool!)
2017-10-18 5:31 PM
fwiw, I don't think suicide is selfish, and even can be completely selfless objectively or in that person's mind like N70 said just above. But since we all make our own choices for whatever reasons whether instinctive or calculated, everything we do is selfish. I'm selfish for the charitable work I do and charitable donations I make because it's what I want to do and makes me feel good. I'm selfish when I buy an iphone. I'm selfish when I give a bunch of my tools to my kid. I'd be selfish if I gave away my family and all worldly possessions to someone who could use them if that was my choice. And in that sense, I'd be selfish if I blew my brains out if that's what I wanted to do. I know what you're saying, but please take it easy on peeps saying it's a selfish act because everything we do is selfish in that sense. We're a pretty compassionate bunch here, and just in this thread we are struggling to understand something none of us really understands, and I think we all have pretty good moral compasses.
"we are struggling to understand something none of us really understands"
As a survivor of an attempt, I understand it perfectly.
(I like wool!)
2017-10-19 3:59 PM
I'm sorry...I didn't know. You're a good friend, and I'm sorry if anything I said in this thread was insensitive to you or others. I'd say and ask more but will leave it for offline.
2017-10-23 11:54 AM
One perspective that might be helpful is to compare severe depression and suicidality with a more "medicalized" illness with a behavioral component, such as diabetes or hypertension. You might encourage a person with those conditions to take her medications, and to follow through with treatment recommendations, but you probably wouldn't refer to her as "selfish' if her blood sugar had large spikes or her kidneys began to fail. Removing the stigma around mental illness takes constant action and advocacy, and a big part of that is constantly challenging ourselves to think in different ways.
ETA that I wasn't "saying" this to Elmtree who is far more wise around these issues than the average bear
, just meant it as a general comment....
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