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Up Topic General / Letters and Opinions / For jasz and all: another little things (maybe big things)
- - By old turtle Date 2017-09-15 4:32 PM
When we moved in December 2011 it happened way too quick. Even though we moved all of a mile and a half our moving date was earlier than expected and it was also right at Christmas. I always wanted to make a tracing of the back of the linen closet door where all the height markings of my sons  growing years were recorded. It didn't happen. If I could have just taken the door and replaced it I would have but it was a custom size (as in built by our remodeler). Someone just rang our doorbell. It was the contractor who is now remodeling our old bathroom. He thought we might want the door. I hugged him on the spot. Almost makes me like people.:hug::hug::hug:
Parent - By Mookiethedog Date 2017-09-15 4:46 PM
Wow....that is a big little thing! :hug:
Parent - - By PoopedColt Date 2017-09-15 5:27 PM
:hug::hug::hug: That is AWESOME!! And I can so relate. In our old house, I used to mark the kids on either side of Maggie's pen in the basement. When we moved I was upset about leaving it. When we got to the new house, I found that DH had dismantled the pen and nailed the 2x4s up in the attic. One of the best things he's ever done. :hug: You had better believe when we move again, those things are coming with us. Priceless

That contractor is a good peep. He must be a dad. :hug:
Parent - By old turtle Date 2017-09-15 5:57 PM
So glad you have your 2x4's. (The contractor is a dad.)
Parent - - By The Beard (is wearing Arm Panties) [us] Date 2017-09-15 6:14 PM
That's an adoorable story.

^do you see what I did there?

:hug:
Parent - - By old turtle Date 2017-09-15 7:47 PM
:laugh:
Yep, I saw what you did. :hug:
Parent - - By Mookiethedog Date 2017-09-15 9:06 PM
It is amazing what heights he will go to for comedy.:hug:
Parent - By old turtle Date 2017-09-16 4:57 AM
True. :hug:
Parent - By Blueberry Sky Date 2017-09-15 6:44 PM
Wow, now that is truly awesome! You must THRILLED! :grin:
Parent - By JimGo1 Date 2017-09-15 7:08 PM
Thats awesome !
Parent - By sideshowbob Date 2017-09-16 5:04 AM
Beautiful--thanks for sharing
Parent - By NotSoFast [ca] Date 2017-09-16 9:18 AM
:hug::hug::hug:
Parent - By IB Date 2017-09-16 11:58 AM
:cool::hug:
Parent - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-09-16 2:43 PM
Wow that is awesome! :hug::hug::hug:
Parent - By brneydrnnr (barney cougar) [us] Date 2017-09-18 7:48 AM
:hug:
- - By PoopedColt Date 2017-09-15 6:15 PM
mine's not as big as old turtle's, but I'm feeling very :hug::hug::hug: at the moment.  Note that I have 19 & 16 y.o. BOYS.  Yesterday was my birthday - and I'm now closer to 50 than 40. : pbbt:  Wednesday afternoon I came down with a stomach virus.  I haven't called in sick to work in like 7-8 years, and on my bday all I could do was lay down and stare in a quiet room. :meh:  But, my 19 y.o. woke up early (for him) to call me at 7:30 to catch me before work to say Happy Birthday, and as soon as I staggered out my door that morning, the first thing my 16 y.o. said was Happy Birthday! :hug: I was too sick to eat any cake or even open presents yesterday, so we waited until today.

My kids told me over the summer they were thinking of getting me a new purse.  Mine functions, but it's old and dirty.  I walked with them through Target and pointed out features that I liked and needed.  And when I opened my present???  They got me a freaking Kate Spade bag! :shocker!::shocker!::shocker!: In exactly what I like size/pockets/etc. If you know me, you know I'm the queen of buying $20 Walmart/Target bags and making them last 5+ years.  I've never expected anything like this! I am floored.  Steven has a lot of contacts through his media accounts, so he said he got it at a good discount - for that I"m very thankful.  Because now I have to learn how to not sling it all over the floor wherever. But wow.  I've got good kids.  Wouldn't trade them for the world. :hug::hug::hug:
Parent - - By Blueberry Sky Date 2017-09-15 6:46 PM
That is fantastic, what great kids you raised/are raising! :hug:
Sorry you were sick on your birthday. :sad: Wait till you are closer to 60 than 50. :cry: : pbbt:
Parent - By PoopedColt Date 2017-09-16 11:06 AM
thanks!  And I know it doesn't get any easier as the years go by... :cry:  But 55 will be a golden one for me.  The day I turn 55 I'm eligible to "retire." :cool:  The quotations marks are because I'll still have to work, but I will be free to go wherever and do whatever I'd like... I don't hate my job or hate my life, but it can be hard at times if you feel stuck.  It's nice to dream.
Parent - By The Beard (is wearing Arm Panties) [us] Date 2017-09-15 6:58 PM
:cool:
Parent - By JimGo1 Date 2017-09-15 7:09 PM
Very nice !  Thoughtful kids.
Parent - By old turtle Date 2017-09-15 7:49 PM
I love this! Enjoy your new purse. Also, belated Happy Birthday!
Parent - By sideshowbob Date 2017-09-16 5:05 AM
:cool:
Parent - - By NotSoFast [ca] Date 2017-09-16 9:18 AM
no pics purse didn't happen. we want pics!!!
Parent - - By PoopedColt Date 2017-09-16 11:03 AM
See if this works.

I chuckled that DH didn't know the brand.  But I also confess that I would not have known either if I had not heard about it on these forums. :blush:
Parent - By brneydrnnr (barney cougar) [us] Date 2017-09-18 7:51 AM
that's a great bag! :cool:
Parent - By Arimathea [us] Date 2017-09-17 5:59 PM
Happy birthday! And so nice of your boys for doing that for you.
Parent - By ironjen Date 2017-09-18 8:21 AM
Your kids are the bomb! And you and your hubs have done an excellent job in raising them :hug: Happiest of birthdays to you!
- - By NotSoFast [ca] Date 2017-09-16 9:22 AM
I have decided to donate back at least all the blood and platelets that my son received over the course of his cancer treatments. I figure it was like 3 gallons of blood and probably 1 of platelets. I started yesterday on the 6 month anniversary of his death. It felt really good. I had never donated before. So if any of you can donate please do so, especially platelets, they only last 5 or so days  and cancer patients depend on them dearly.
Parent - By old turtle Date 2017-09-16 9:58 AM
:hug: (this is a big thing.) :hug:
Parent - By The Beard (is wearing Arm Panties) [us] Date 2017-09-16 10:24 AM
That's really great. :hug:
Parent - - By PoopedColt Date 2017-09-16 10:52 AM
:hug::hug::hug: I've often thought about donating platelets. I bldg is next door to the parking lot at work. But I've rationalized telling myself that there's always a long line people waiting to donate and they need $$$ more than I do and also the time factor. But I have a day off Thursday so maybe I can check it out.

(So many hugs to you always)
Parent - - By NotSoFast [ca] Date 2017-09-16 6:07 PM
The platelet they don't pay for (I think it is plasma) or at any rate my OneBlood does not pay for platelets, but it is a longer process almost 2 to 3 hours in that they take your blood out, pull out the platelets, and put the whole blood back in. You usually have to donate whole blood first and they do a platelet check.
Parent - By PoopedColt Date 2017-09-17 3:25 PM
Ah yes... you are obviously correct. I get my bodily fluids mixed up. My hemoglobin is usually too low for blood donation. :sad:
Parent - By Arimathea [us] Date 2017-09-17 6:01 PM
Plasma is what they pay for.
Parent - By Mookiethedog Date 2017-09-16 12:13 PM
Great goal...and hopefully you just keep on donating.  I did 50+ blood donations and tons of platelets until I was told I can't donate anymore (and we don't even get paid to do it).  :hug:
Parent - By Schantzie [us] Date 2017-09-16 8:36 PM
:hug::hug:
Parent - By Arimathea [us] Date 2017-09-17 6:01 PM
I agree, this is a big thing.

Platelet donation takes a while, be aware. They can and do extract platelets from the whole blood donations, but if you are donating platelets alone it can take a couple of hours hooked up with IVs in both arms, at least it did last time I donated platelets.

The good thing about platelet donation is you can do it 1-2x a week if necessary, whereas whole blood it takes 8 weeks before you can donate again.
Parent - By IB Date 2017-11-08 12:17 PM
:hug::cool:
- - By Elcontador [us] Date 2017-09-18 3:05 PM
Last month, I visited Montreal for three days, rented a car and drove around Quebec for several weeks.  Had never been there before.

In planning the trip  I looked at tourist literature beforehand and noticed lots of stuff about Montreal and the City of Quebec, but virtually nothing else.  I contacted tourist offices in various parts of Quebec (there's no one central place to get everything about the province any longer), spoke with people and received some literature.  I read about lots of interesting things to see and do which I could not find elsewhere.  So I guessed that the reason I didn't see much else written about these places elsewhere was because the people who visited them were primarily Quebecois.  Turned out I guessed right.

So I got a basic French course with a workbook and CDs.  I was going to do my best to get with the program.  After many hours, and countless mistakes mis-pronouncing many words, getting verb conjugations wrong, etc., I completed it.  I put a google-translate app on my phone, and took off.  I learned as much as I could while there.

There's a lot to see and do in Quebec, but my big take-away from the trip was the people who lived there.  When I was 'on,' I could put together two or three sentences in French and be understood, and understand the responses I received.  Sometimes I had to use my hands and point to objects as well, but more often than not, I was able to make myself understood.  For my efforts, I got lots of smiles, and attention and help with little things I otherwise would have not received.  People genuinely appreciated my effort in trying to learn their language.  Occasionally I'd find a younger person who took the trouble to learn English well, and we both got quite a bit from speaking with one another.

Feeling good about my fellow human being is a very good thing, and I don't feel this way often enough.  I felt that way (as well as bewildered quite a bit) throughout my trip; which was not a vacation, but an adventure.

PS: Quebec is an interesting place to visit, and it isn't all that hard to get to for most of us.  But if anyone tells you, "oh don't worry, everyone speaks English there," once you leave Montreal, don't believe them.  Learn a little bit of French before you go.
Parent - By old turtle Date 2017-09-18 5:17 PM
I loved visiting that area many years ago. At the time I used a bit of my  high school Frenc.It has now been enough years that I no longer have any high school French.:sad:
My husband and I totally loved that area.
- - By IB Date 2017-11-08 12:17 PM
It is very likely that I will be arrested for trespassing soon. I've been watching James Kingston videos on youtube and I've spotted a crane I want to climb.  :grin:
Parent - - By gadget girl Date 2017-11-08 1:18 PM
I doubt you'll get arrested.  Most of the time they fly away before you can climb 'em. 

BOOM !~
Parent - By IB Date 2017-11-08 4:23 PM
:laugh:
Parent - - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-11-08 6:51 PM
:laugh: I'd say don't do it, but think that maybe you should do it.
Parent - - By IB Date 2017-11-08 11:07 PM
I probably will do it and just hope to get away with it or at least get away without being charged. I see the thing every day on my way to work and the desire just keeps increasing. I almost ran by there on my way home tonight just to see what the situation looks like at night.
Parent - - By sideshowbob Date 2017-11-09 5:58 AM
Sounds very Freudian .
Parent - By gadget girl Date 2017-11-09 11:57 AM
:laugh::laugh:
Parent - - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-11-09 10:41 PM
:cool:
Parent - - By IB Date 2017-11-09 11:01 PM
Today as I was longingly looking up I noticed a second crane in the distance.  :grin:
Parent - - By sideshowbob Date 2017-11-10 6:45 AM
Beginning to sound like Louis C K :shocker!:
Parent - - By BrookieCookie (Canadian Beaver) Date 2017-11-10 7:57 AM
Oh Louis. :sad: I tried watching some Bill Burr standup last night. It's just not the same. :cry:
Parent - By neustkg (Important) Date 2017-11-17 5:50 PM
Wondering if Daniel Tosh will be the next comedian accused of sexual harrassment???
Parent - - By gadget girl Date 2017-11-20 12:37 PM
Are you avoiding watching Louis CK because of what he did?

Maybe I am alone in this but I do not take into account any personal shortcomings in enjoying the work of an artist.  For example, Celine was a horrible anti-semite and wrote some fantastic books which made a lasting impression on me.   I would happily watch a Mel Gibson movie if he was in something I wanted to see.    Artists are supposed to be on the fringe in many ways no?
Parent - - By tizzy319 (gaping five hole) [us] Date 2017-11-20 1:03 PM
I 1/2 agree.  I have no problem once said individual is dead to enjoy their artistic work.  However, while they are alive, I don't want them profiting from my actions.  It's how I can justify listening to Michael Jackson and not R. Kelly.
Parent - - By gadget girl Date 2017-11-20 2:31 PM
I get it, but I personally don't care about this either as long as they are not convicted criminals.  I  wouldn't pay for a book by a convicted criminal who is capitalizing on her crime
I  believe there are some laws about this anyway.
Parent - - By BrookieCookie (Canadian Beaver) Date 2017-11-20 3:08 PM
How would you feel about The Cosby Show reruns? I was just talking about this with DH ... are they still in syndication?
Parent - - By tizzy319 (gaping five hole) [us] Date 2017-11-21 9:12 AM
I'm pretty sure The Cosby Show isn't in syndication anymore, however 7th Heaven still is. 

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I've tried watching Cosby again and just can't.
Parent - By BrookieCookie (Canadian Beaver) Date 2017-11-21 9:22 AM
I don't think I could either. It's weird to think Benjamin won't ever casually see an episode on TV. It used to ALWAYS be on TV.
Parent - - By BrookieCookie (Canadian Beaver) Date 2017-11-20 2:00 PM
Yeah I'm just not sure I can do this when someone's art is such an apparent close approximation of their real life. His stand-up is just him talking and seeming so "Right On" but then he's a creepy masturbation forcing dude... it's just not the same. At least there;s still Dave Chappell
Parent - - By gadget girl Date 2017-11-20 3:08 PM
Sure he uses his life in his shtick but that's just it, his shtick is his public persona, not him.  I understand and appreciate what you are saying though, but would probably watch Louis cK in the future.
Parent - - By BrookieCookie (Canadian Beaver) Date 2017-11-20 3:09 PM
I could see myself forgiving him in the future. Of all of the shitheads out there I think he is well poised to make an eventual comeback if he is contrite enough. Maybe.
Parent - - By gadget girl Date 2017-11-20 3:12 PM
I would add that I used to listen to interviews with him on the Mark Marron podcast because Louis CK became famous and he certainly did not come across as anything like an upstanding citizen to me.
Parent - - By BrookieCookie (Canadian Beaver) Date 2017-11-20 3:22 PM
Right that;s fine I don't really want him to be upstanding but he crossed a line for me and it's hard to come back from that. But I liked his apology. People make mistakes and it seemed consensual? Although that's a bit fuzzy and when it's fuzzy is it by default not consent? If so I would have a way harder time forgiving. But overall I'm more mad at Al Franken because American women depended on him to fight the crazy and he's just an objectifying asshole like the rest of 'em. :roll: (Maybe).
Parent - - By gadget girl Date 2017-11-20 5:48 PM
I liked his apology too, although the cynical side of me thought he is just doing this to be able to mine his perversions for more material in the future when people are ready to forgive (like Mel Gibson who seems to have dusted himself off after a few years). 

Yes, it seems that alleged assholes come in all political stripes :shocker!::shocker!:.  I note that some people on my facebook feed are trying to discredit Franken's accuser as a sexual object/hypocrite/liar due to her own possibly ambiguous and/or monstrous conduct which seems reasonable, but regrettably seems to follow a predictable pattern of forgiving/excusing those only who share your political opinions.  Is anyone looking to discredit victims of DT's sexual harrassment?  Nope. 

Also, is anyone entitled to due process anymore? I guess these aren't legal accusations really but since much of this stuff ends up with people fired/blacklisted, it would be nice if the allegations were more carefully scrutinized.
Parent - - By tizzy319 (gaping five hole) [us] Date 2017-11-21 9:24 AM
I certainly agree with wanting this stuff more carefully scrutinized.  While income isn't as much an issue for the celebrities/politicians being outed and fired/blacklisted, it would be if this public scorn extended to the average person.  Many of my clients depend on their abusers being employed for child support or maintenance.  This immediate reaction could harm victims too. 

I hope those people on your feed who are trying to discredit Leeann Tweeden have stopped once the 2nd allegation happened.  I think there is a big difference between 1 and 2 allegations when it comes to this kind of issue since it is rare there is real evidence in this kind of situation (although in Franken's case, there certainly was visual evidence).  It also highlights a pattern of abuse vs one stupid action. 

As for due process, the court of public opinion is vastly different than the judicial system.  I'm still waiting to see who actually loses their job with all of these allegations.  Weinstein certainly lost his as did Spacey and Louis CK.  However, so many others haven't yet (and may never).
Parent - - By Nomad Date 2017-11-21 1:56 PM
This links with part of my discomfort with the way this is playing out; that is, the way in which not watching/cancelling a program affects the others involved; why should some random camera operator or assistant lose their job because Kevin Spacey is a creep so Netflix cancels his show. And similarly why can't someone want to watch House of Cards because of Robin Wright, what did she do to lose her job & have her resume besmirched? The examples you gave above of musicians are a little easier but even then, what if someone else wrote the song & was getting the royalties and now doesn't due to the actions of the singer.

And as much as it certainly appears that these assholes are assholes, when does believing the accuser as soon as they speak up cross the line from innocent until proven guilty? Which goes back to pubic opinion vs. judicial system. I have, perhaps, a slightly different view on this after the UK's Operation Yewtree post-Jimmy Saville ended up finding some accusations to be unsafe/false after years of investigation in the public eye, in addition to happily throwing into jail a number of abusers who'd been hiding behind celebrity.

It's all such a mess; seems the best we can hope for is that in future people feel empowered to speak up earlier so that the law can be involved from the start and abuse can be dealt with as the criminal offence it is.
Parent - - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-11-21 8:19 PM
It really is a mess. Until a couple days ago, I was convinced all the revelations were a good thing for awareness and accountability. But my wife and I were talking yesterday how we're bordering on desensitization which is the opposite of awareness and accountability. And that's how the USA's abuser-in-chief today could come out flatly in support of Roy Moore.

Obviously, I don't know the UK assholes as well as the US assholes but they all are part of the mess. The sheer number of accusations whether proven, disproven, admitted or denied desensitizes us. Personally, I believe almost all of the accusations. But I also think that that the swampy landscape now allows for flat denial and victim-blaming by the abusers and abuser-supporters. That is wrong and sad.
Parent - - By triplejake (The Vampire Lestat) [us] Date 2017-11-22 10:38 AM
I think desensitization is the wrong response (though it may be a natural one) to the wave of allegations -- I think the takeaway is that this is not a "few bad apples" issues, it is a systemic one  that will require pretty dramatic steps if it is ever going to change.   Perhaps that will include some overcorrection in circumstances like employment and public estimation where due process does not apply, but it seems pretty clear that there has been a lot of undercorrection to this point.
Parent - By IB Date 2017-11-22 2:27 PM
Thank you for that post.
Parent - - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-11-22 6:07 PM
Yes, absolutely it's a bad response but like you say it's natural for some people and we've all seen that response lately in friends, media and/or political leaders. And that scares me because it really is a systemic problem and not one to be dismissed or to blame/deny the victim or blame a few bad apples. I do believe that the torrent of worse and lesser things helped Moore, our abuser-in-chief, and Kellyanne to deny, which basically attacked the victims.

As you know, my prime directive is due process. But like you say, there probably has been undercorrection and I'm all for overcorrection in employment, associations, public media, social media and everywhere else. Out and burn the fuckers even if some innocents get burnt. (Yeah, that goes against my prime directive.) My concern here isn't due process, but that the sheer volume of old things coming out now waters down the more serious things like Moore and allows cover to deny, deny and deflect. With the deflection targeting the victims. What could be more wrong than that?

Don't get me wrong. Mrs. flamus and I are horrified and saddened by each and every report, and we're not desensitized. But we recognize that other people are, and that's what is scary.
Parent - - By gadget girl Date 2017-11-30 5:44 PM
"But like you say, there probably has been undercorrection and I'm all for overcorrection in employment, associations, public media, social media and everywhere else. Out and burn the fuckers even if some innocents get burnt"

I think many people now share your feelings as expressed above and I disagree that overcorrection should be encouraged.  I am not trying to make light of sexual harrassment (and have had some personal experience with it, including, sadly to say of the Louis C.K. variety) but careers and reputations should not be lightly ended without careful consideration (if not "due process" since we are not talking about courts here) based on allegations, not to mention the devastating impacts these decisions can have on innocent people, as Nomad points out above.  For whatever reason, people always get incensed in claims related to sexual offenses and child molestation and seem more than happy to try people in the court of public opinion.  I think we should always resist this urge to be swayed by emotion in these cases. 

Keep in mind also that sexual harassment includes a lot of consensual relationships (like sleeping with the boss) which still constitute harassment even if completely consensual.   The public cases that I have heard of so far clearly seem to be predators, but generally speaking, there is some gray area here and whereas it does seem like clearly there has been undercorrection so far, the answer, in my opinion, is to encourage more people to come forward and be heard -- but those claims should still be subjected to a deliberative and ideally impartial process (such as hiring an outside lawfirm or other individual to investigate).
Parent - - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-11-30 7:21 PM
I agree with everything you say, most of all that we shouldn't decide things like this on emotion. My "burn the fuckers" comment which you aptly quoted is a good example. (:blush: <-guilty jasz). I didn't articulate that very well at all. What I meant to emphasize was that we shouldn't excuse the abusers of vulnerable people like children, women, subordinates and applicants simply because of the sheer volume that is coming out, and that maybe we should give the vulnerable victims the benefit of the doubt. I was over the top in overcorrecting for dramatic purposes but again, my important point is that overcorrecting is better than ignoring. Ignoring and minimizing enables deflections and denials by the guilty, and that's wrong.

Due process is important in the judicial system, but equally or more important in day-to-day life. We all justifiably expect and deserve fair treatment in our lives, and fairness is just another word for due process. Peeps in this twitter age burn the innocent "witch" a thousandfold more quickly than the peeps in Salem burned theirs. So yeah, I agree with you that we should give the accused a fair shake. And that includes recognizing those gray areas you mention. Again, fairness is my prime directive, both in the courtroom and in life. I really don't want to burn innocents...I just want to burn the fuckers.

The one thing you suggest which I question is that putative victims' claims should be subjected to an impartial process like hiring an outside law firm or individual to investigate. I'm all for investigation and getting the facts, and also have faith in the judicial system (although many of the claims don't qualify for judicial relief for various reasons). I really don't think that a truly impartial process is possible in most cases. Most are impossible or impractical, and often are only as impartial as the people paying them. Governmental investigations are great, but limited in scope and effect and worthless in the private sector for the private victims. Maybe the best we all can do is listen with an open mind to the terrabytes of information coming from all directions and make our own judgments.

I've no punchline. Except that victims should be recognized, not minimized. And future victims shouldn't happen. Your guess is as good as mine how that can happen.
Parent - - By Nomad Date 2017-12-01 7:36 AM
What I don't understand is why the police aren't involved? This could be because I don't understand the US system or that I don't read the right websites, but again I refer to the (imperfect) UK reaction to the posthumous Jimmy Savile revelations - we put together a country-wide Operation (Yewtree) where individual police services did their own investigations but supported by and reporting to a national team. Even those allegations, e.g. Jimmy S, which couldn't result in any charges were investigated by the police to some degree. There was eventually a backlash against some of the investigations but that Operation has been going on for 5 years so far and done a lot of good among the sadly bungled cases.
Parent - - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-12-01 6:04 PM
That's a good point and good question, and frankly given my U.S. perspective I'm a little surprised that there even was an investigation in the circumstances you describe. Here in the U.S. the police may investigate to solve a cold crime or something like that, but usually only investigate to catch a living perpetrator who can be prosecuted.

In direct answer to your question, we have statutes of limitation here in the U.S. which would bar prosecution of an adult for a crime against another adult after so many years, although generally the limitation is extended when the victim is a minor. Even with a minor victim, prosecution may be barred by the lapse of time and that's why prosecution can't take place in the Roy Moore case, and another reason why he freely can deny without fear of investigation and possible prosecution. Again, law enforcement generally won't investigate unless they can prosecute. After the statute of limitation expires, investigation is pretty much limited to private citizens and the media.

I would have thought it was similar in the UK, since our justice systems are so similar. I could do the research, but do you have a quick answer on whether you have statutes of limitations for older crimes and how that plays out in practice?
Parent - - By Nomad Date 2017-12-02 7:16 PM
As far as I’m aware English law has no statute of limitations on criminal charges which would definitely explain the difference in the way Operation Yewtree was able to work vs. the current US situation. Take the case of Rolf Harris who was in his mid-80s when he was sent to jail for sexual offences that occurred in the 1970s & 1980s.

So...if you want to be a sexual predator, you’re better off in the US than UK once you’re found out, while our libel laws make it much harder for newspapers to publish allegations.
Parent - - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-12-04 5:54 PM
Thanks. Yeah the finer rules differ around the globe, and I suppose they should. Another old example is Roman Polanski. He's a child rapist in some countries but perfectly ok in others. In his case, I don't think the US statute of limitations has run out, so we're with the UK on that.
Parent - - By tizzy319 (gaping five hole) [us] Date 2017-12-06 11:41 AM
I'm pretty sure there is no statute of limitations on Pulanski since he plead guilty and then fled.  So, it's just a matter of getting him to actually serve his time (which isn't going to happen since he's not going to a country that would extradite him).
Parent - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-12-06 9:05 PM
I think you're right on Pulanski, tizzy. And maybe why my belief that he can't return here is correct. And you're also right that he won't be jailed or prosecuted so long as he stays in the right countries. :meh:
Parent - - By gadget girl Date 2017-12-04 3:29 PM
I should have added that I didn't really mean this directed personally at you -- you just mentioned some sentiments that I saw more generally expressed.  I am sure based on what you do for a living and your interactions here that you are a fair minded person and your indignation was leveled at the guilty only. 

Fair point on the "impartial process".  There probably isn't one. As to avoid future victims, I don't have an answer.  What I see on my son's instagram account gives me no encouragement of any enlightenment from the current young generation of his peers, either girls or guys.   I strongly suspect that the availability of online porn is part of the problem.
Parent - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-12-04 5:45 PM
Oh I know it wasn't personal and like I said, I agreed with you. :wink:

Yeah maybe online porn is part of the problem of dehumanization and victimization among young peeps, but that doesn't explain the decades-old stuff or the newer stuff involving supposedly smart adult men in positions of power or prestige. If you figure out an answer how to stop or slow victimization, please let us know. There may not be an answer, unfortunately.
Parent - By LDR (100 Mile Stud) [us] Date 2017-11-23 8:03 AM
...this is not a "few bad apples" issues, it is a systemic one..."

Much of this reminds me too much of college frat party stuff, and I wonder if the correction doesn't need to start there, if not high school.  It's like some of these people never grew up, not that these types of behaviors are any more acceptable when we're young.
Parent - By gadget girl Date 2017-11-30 5:44 PM
I agree with everything you said.
Parent - - By triplejake (The Vampire Lestat) [us] Date 2017-12-04 2:40 PM
They are making House of Cards without Kevin Spacey.  Assholes can be replaced.
Parent - - By Nomad Date 2017-12-05 11:25 AM
I just saw that & I'm pleased - I never watched the US version myself but the Guardian perfectly summed up my concerns with "... it takes an army to make a show like House of Cards, and this commitment to new episodes means that thousands of people won’t have to spend Christmas looking for new jobs. On a basic human level, that seems like the most decent thing to do."

But the article goes on to put forward the opposite opinion which I think just shows how conflicted on art vs. artist all these assholes have forced us to become :sad: full article
Parent - - By gadget girl Date 2017-12-05 11:46 AM
the LA Times ran an article yesterday on how many people in Hollywood have lost jobs right before the holidays related to the firings.  Most notably were people working on Louis CK's new shows.  One was an animated show which they didn't think could be redone because one of the characters was apparently Louis CK himself.  Even people who lost jobs were supportive of the victims though.
Parent - - By triplejake (The Vampire Lestat) [us] Date 2017-12-05 12:59 PM
I have a hard time with the argument that society should think twice about punishing an abuser if they are important enough to have others rely on them financially.  I suppose at the margins that is a factor one might consider, but if there is enough evidence to persuade an employer or other decision-maker that a guy is a harasser, his relative importance shouldn't get him off the hook, I think.
Parent - - By gadget girl Date 2017-12-05 1:41 PM
I am not suggesting that people should not be punished because they provide jobs, etc.  I am suggesting that (a) people make very diligent efforts to ensure that they are punishing actual abusers (current reports so far suggest those fired or dismissed have a history of repeated abuse/harassment but I worry about this when the pendulum starts swinging wildly in the other direction), and (b) that in crafting punishments, they attempt to consider the far reaching consequences of their actions (so like House of Cards, write the character out rather than end the show if possible).
Parent - - By triplejake (The Vampire Lestat) [us] Date 2017-12-05 1:53 PM
Not sure what you mean by "very diligent."  In legal terms, I'd say a simple preponderance of the evidence standard is appropriate here -- are you saying you'd prefer a more onerous standard?
Parent - - By Nomad Date 2017-12-05 2:53 PM
Coming from a jurisdiction without a statute of limitations, yes, the more onerous standard is that of any other criminal case - beyond a reasonable doubt. The pendulum in the UK did swing back and we have several celebrities who were found not guilty in court, or no charges brought due to a lack of evidence after a thorough police investigation. I can't be OK with them being collateral damage in the fight to lock up the guilty any more than I can be OK with hanging the occasional wrongly accused alleged-murderer (one reason the UK no longer has the death penalty) or with leaving IRA members in jail for decades for crimes they didn't commit even if they 'probably' committed others. Sexual assault is a particularly nasty crime, but we should have a legal system that can deal with it, and which supports & protects victims so that they feel able to come forward, without needing to drop the standard required for punishment to 'trial by media'.
Parent - - By triplejake (The Vampire Lestat) [us] Date 2017-12-05 5:32 PM
I agree with you where criminal charges are filed, but in the private employment or civil context, there is not that kind of standard generally in the US and I don't see a reason for one for these kinds of allegations.
Parent - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-12-05 5:51 PM
True, and I agree. While the charges can be serious, they in most cases are not criminal for various reasons and should not carry the reasonable doubt standard in civil or employment contexts. I kind of went into a treatise about the standard just below...sorry. :blush:
Parent - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-12-05 5:47 PM
This really hits on the issue, about avoiding/preventing victimization which like I've said elsewhere may be an impossible task. You save one victim, you create another. :meh:

Abuse of the vulnerable is horrible and the perps should be punished civilly, monetarily, reputationally, in employment and in appropriate cases, criminally. But the other victims like clueless collaterally damaged employees and falsely accused innocents should not be punished AT ALL. But they are. The criminal standard like you say is beyond a reasonable doubt while in most cases the civil standard is preponderance and the appellate review standard generally is even less, usually "substantial evidence" which is something more than a scintilla. My personal standard for the recent public cases is between preponderance and beyond reasonable doubt: clear and convincing. This standard also is used in civil proceedings for similar he-said-she-said things difficult to prove or defend against. That makes more sense to me than the criminal or preponderance standard.

Geez this all must be interesting only to legal nerds. :blush: But it really is important for doing the right things now and that the right things happen going forward. And important for how we feel about things.

As sort of a postscript, I really don't have a problem with trial by media so long as accurate facts come out and peeps including other media outlets listen and make informed decisions. I did that myself in the Roy Moore thing, evaluating detailed credible attributed sources with corroborating details so that I totally believe most or all of the women. Especially compared to a flat self-serving denial with no supporting facts or other corroboration whatsoever on the other side. In my mind, the accusations are true by clear and convincing evidence. In the minds of Alabama voters, who knows? We'll find out soon, but I'd wager that few voters will apply any standard beyond their predisposition, party affiliation or gut.
Parent - - By gadget girl Date 2017-12-05 3:20 PM
I assume you are talking about a case involving an employer looking to fire an employee and not a situation involving a legal case (either criminal or civil) -- I am clarifying this based on Nomad's response below, which is not what I think you are asking about. 

I think preponderance of the evidence is appropriate in the employment scenario, however, the grey area is where there is only one allegation.  In a he said/she said situation with no corroboration, the preponderance of the evidence standard may depend purely on who seems more believable, which is something potentially subjective and often unreliable.
Parent - - By triplejake (The Vampire Lestat) [us] Date 2017-12-05 4:13 PM
I agree that a predominance of the evidence standard would also turn on subjective views of who to believe.  That seems preferable to me than the alternatives and consistent with how facts are often determined in our justice system.  But I do that no that in many or most cases, the accuser's allegations would be alone sufficient.
Parent - By triplejake (The Vampire Lestat) [us] Date 2017-12-05 5:34 PM
That last sentence should be "But I do think that..."
Parent - By sideshowbob Date 2017-12-05 9:51 PM
Thank you all for your cogent non-vitriolic responses . Quite educational.
Parent - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-11-10 9:33 PM
:laugh::wink:
Parent - By LDR (100 Mile Stud) [us] Date 2017-12-07 7:09 AM
Thanks to this portion of this thread, I've had to go to "Options" and change my "Indent" preferences from "5" to "1", just so I could figure out who's responding to who(m).  :laugh:
Parent - - By mutiger [us] Date 2017-11-10 5:30 PM
DONT DO IT!

ETA: You are too precious and have a lot of talent, please don't do stupid stuff that will end you in lockup.
Parent - - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-11-10 9:40 PM
You're getting soft, mut. In the immortal words of Tom Cruise in Risky Business, sometimes you just gotta say wtf.

I'll never forget you and Dude jumping out of newmama/ella's car in downtown cincy to continue the action all those years ago. That was a total risky business moment, and one which I totally respect to this day. :cool:
Parent - - By foggydoggy [us] Date 2017-11-17 6:43 PM
I really want an old Porsche 928 (The "Uboat" in the movie) just so I can get vanity plates "SUMTIMZ"  If the DMV asks.... I work in accounting.  I've also thought about "MANOPAWS" on any sportscar.

IB be careful but follow you heart, so long as your brain has a realistic exit strategy and your wallet has bail money.  I will also share some advice from a former coworker.  "If you are going to get drunk and climb the GG bridge towers you should do the north tower.... The Marin county jail is much nicer than the SF jail."
Parent - By Arimathea [us] Date 2017-11-20 1:55 PM
:laugh:
Parent - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-11-20 4:19 PM
:laugh:
Parent - By gadget girl Date 2017-11-21 4:38 PM
:laugh:
Parent - By gadget girl Date 2017-11-20 12:37 PM
:hug:
Parent - - By IB Date 2017-12-01 12:49 AM
Who is this precious person with talent you speak of?

Took a good look this morning at the camera situation. I already know it is guarded by rent-a-cop security. I'm climbing next week.
Parent - By Mookiethedog Date 2017-12-01 1:00 AM
hahah...and as you know you should go for it! :hug:
Parent - - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-12-04 6:17 PM
So did you climb yet?! :shocker!::grin::cool::hug:
Parent - - By IB Date 2017-12-06 7:35 PM
Not yet, the original plan was for tonight but we are swamped with work & I've been pulling overtime every day. Maybe I can get up there tomorrow night. Has to be on a Monday through Thursday night, so if not tomorrow it will have to be pushed off another week. The other bummer situation right now is the fact that last night I grabbed Whitney's old digital camera hoping to use it to take a few photos. Unfortunately it sat for a few years with batteries in it and doesn't want to function now.
Parent - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-12-07 4:49 PM
Well, if and when you do it, we'll want pics please. :happy:
Parent - By mutiger [us] Date 2017-12-07 5:06 PM
those are signals. DONT DO IT.
- - By sideshowbob Date 2017-11-21 1:37 PM
DD #1 home for the holidays--seems like she never left :hug:
Parent - By jaszflamus (I like wool!) Date 2017-11-21 4:21 PM
:hug:
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